“Areas of particular concern include Texas, Alabama, Arkansas and several other US states”

Hey, I’m all for an armed socialist revolution. Maybe a few guillotines.

Until we get that organized tho, you’ll just have to vote so that we can actually organize it.

If Biden can’t win in a landslide, it’s because Joe Biden sucks, not because the youth are entitled, bourgeois, ignorant, lazy, or any of the other insults being thrown around in this comment thread.

I don’t think “kids these days” are entitled, lazy or ignorant but to a degree both these types of things can be true. Biden is unappealing, yes, but everywhere I turn are people arguing that both parties are the same and that Democrats have done nothing for them. In these cases, when pressed it turns out they just don’t actually know one way or the other. It’s a generalized sentiment of “politicians bad” and many are surprised to learn of even a handful of things Dems and Biden have done that they support.

So I guess you could argue that Democrats suck at marketing. But I’d also argue that many of us suck at understanding politics.

I actually think that’s perfectly possible because to be a christian you have to already be in denial about a whole boatload of things, so really… what’s one more? And as a bonus “my own people hate me” fits nicely with the whole christian guilt thing.

I actually did not know that Tim Cook is a christian nut job.

What I want to know is what is she doing out of the kitchen and speaking in public.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

the prototype will have been demonstrated to be successful to the ruling class and that future should scare the shit out of you

This prototype was proven “successful” time and again. This country was founded on genocide and authoritarian, racist control. I don’t fear that it will become that because it has been that and in so many ways is that still. As I see it Democrats may be participants and supporters of that but it’s given the options, there’s no question it’s the better of the two in that it allows some progress. Republicans want full-on fascism because they simply don’t believe in democracy or the compromise necessary to support democratic principles or any kind of shit toward a progressive or socialist future. And I’ll take the thin veneer of that over nothing at all.

I get that you are willing to let it all crumble. I felt that way in 2016 and you know what? It was so much worse than I imagined it could be because I had way too much faith in our “institutions” and the strength of our laws. I despise HRC for her right-wing neocon ways but I think often of how much better things would be if she had been able to take the office that she won.

Shame on us for being afraid to defend our value

It’s not a question of are we defending our values, it’s a question of how. I believe that both participation within our system and active protest against it are critical. If we don’t have the former we don’t have a foundation for the latter. If we break things so much that a Republican administration gets into office, we are taking so many steps backward we may never move forward again in our lifetimes.

Now is the time to wield our power, now is the time to shut this shit down.

I admire the sentiment and support you in that. Our conversation has softened my view and given me insight into the necessity of standing firmly on principle, even in this instance. I don’t fully agree with it but I can definitely respect it.

Cool so what me and other people who have had enough genocide and think similarly are going to do is loudly tell Biden (which we are doing) that we want to vote for him, but we can’t unless he stops the genocide of Palestinians

That’s a fair point and I don’t have a great counter to that not least because that pressure is working. In fact my only argument is a bit of a future hypothetical – that there are two consequences of this, namely: (a) it’s causing a lot of younger voters to not want to vote; (b) it’s causing a lot of problems for Biden with some voting blocs because he is not toeing the Zionist ‘party line’. IOW, it could endanger his election prospects.

And that comes down to a difference of opinion: Your red line is Israeli genocide, mine is a Trump administration and all that comes with it. For me anything that makes a Trump administration more likely makes more genocide more likely and about a dozen other things that are going to set us back decades, including more federal and possibly SCOTUS judges and, crucially, more baked-in support for Israel and Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

I appreciate that for you this may be a chance you are willing to take. I have trouble understanding why anyone would feel that way given the systemic issues of undermining US support for Israel that mean we cannot “stop the genocide” anyway. But thank you for having this dialog.

At this point you are just making shit up to justify your nonsensical position.

We can’t eliminate the US military industrial complex. We can limit the harm by putting pressure on an administration - and, crucially it is working to some degree. Do you honestly think you are going to be able to affect any change whatsoever if Trump gets elected? REALLY?

Netanyahu just told Biden to take a hike. Thus, “full stop” disproving what you have said.

I am sorry but I will not vote for a candidate that behaves this way.

So you vote for genocide, just domestically.

Why are you lecturing me about this? Stop wasting your breath on me.

You have a peculiar conception of “lecturing”.

But do you want me to stop saying these things because you are immune to reason? You cannot possibly change your mind, no matter the argument or facts presented? No matter that Biden is himself simply does not have the power to unilaterally stop Israel’s actions?

I do have one simple question for you: What about the genocide that will happen under Trump? Do you prefer that? Do you prefer the murder of women, transgender people, gays and brown people over Palestinians?

Because the choice is incredibly binary: Less killing under Biden or more killing under Trump.

Aha! This is why I can’t think straight! Spaghetti!

As soon as I read the headline I knew Baby Goebbels was involved.

It’s possible to be right about something (your take on the US complicity in Israel’s genocide") but also be completely wrong about how to stop it and the consequences of your response.

Because if you want the killing to stop sitting out an election or refusing to vote for Biden is not going to work out for you. You will be complicit in the killing of women, transgender people, brown people and more. Because - and I really don’t think I’m being hyperbolic here - those are the consequences of a Trump administration.

Far far worse is the simple fact that our chances of stopping Israel’s genocide go to zero under Trump. You think a Republican administration will stop it if you protest? At least with Biden you know it works and you know you can make a dent.

Except they do when they get a good candidate…

Which is exactly my point and exactly the problem even if your assertion is not well supported by the data.

“We’ll only vote if you give us our perfect ideal candidate” - ignoring that (a) you can’t get everything you want in a candidate; (b) other people get a say too; © getting a directionally ok candidate is far better than getting a directionally bad candidate; (d) “good” candidate is a highly subjective assessment. Not all folks 18-whatever are all that progressive.

I gotta admit you come across as rather entitled or at least rather immature. You are demanding the system cater exactly to your specific needs and refuse to participate if it doesn’t.

If that was true, after Obama flipped a bunch of red states, the party would have moved to younger more progressive candidates.

Huh? That completely doesn’t follow.

Maybe I wasn’t clear. Let me try again: When you know that only a tiny fraction of 18-30 year olds are going to even vote, you don’t bother putting forth policies that appeal to them. Instead, you put forth policies that appeal to the largest percentage of voters you can hope to get. So Obama and Hillary both balanced a more progressive agenda against the need to attract voters. They knew for example, that universal healthcare was popular among younger voters but not popular with boomers and even a large chunk of Gen X. So which did you think they went with?

It’s not rocket surgery, it’s basic math.

Meanwhile the DNC has consistently made changes that limit the chances of a popular candidate

This is true. But are you gonnna just throw up your hands or are you going to do something about it? Do you think not voting or not voting for Biden will make it more or less likely you will get a Dem candidate that appeals to you down the road? There’s a decent possibility you will get NO Dem candidate at all.

I have to be honest. I think you are ignoring the power you have. That WE have. It was absolutely not Bernie that helped Biden do anything. It was Biden recognizing that folks like us want a more progressive agenda and using Bernie to help make the case that he was in fact leaning in that direction. He has to acknowledge some of the progressive agenda to win younger votes but at the same time he has to appeal to the far larger chunk of folks who will, you know, actually vote.

I also think you are expressing a point of view that is rather troubling to me. That you think you will get everything you want instantly out of our political system. Change is incremental and slow. It is built one piece at a time on a foundation of Democratic party wins that allow us to appoint judges and enact legislation that maybe doesn’t get where we want to go in the first pass, but allows it to happen the next time. Younger folks have trouble conceptualizing this, and it’s understandable - your time scale is smaller.

So if you want to see change you need to: 1. Vote EVERY TIME; 2. Protest and push for progressive policies; 3. Support younger candidates; 4. Acknowledge this is a long game.

You may ask and I may not answer.

But think about what you said. They pursue the voters that vote for them. When most of your voters are older then yeah, you cater to them. But I also think you grossly underestimate how much they DO actually do for younger voters.

Read Jacobin #40 for some perspective.

Because there’s now no viable option for president that will be held accountable for anything by their own party.

Sometimes it may seem this way but it really isn’t. We get some of what we want. The equation is simple: Get some of what you want under a dem administration or most of what you don’t want under a republican administration.

Our system is such that nobody gets 100% of what they want 100% of the time. So what you aim for is to get a party in with a platform that at least allows some of what you want to happen. By throwing up your hands and saying “well the dems are just as bad” and thus not voting you are essentially making it impossible for any of what you want to happen. If Trump wins you can kiss a supreme court majority goodbye. If Trump wins you can look forward to gutting any effort to promote renewables and hold the oil industry accountable. You can look forward to no woman being safe with her medical choices. The list here is enormous.

Meanwhile Biden has accomplished a lot. I don’t like many of his policies, but I’m not blind to the good his administration has done. I think you are, so let me remind you of just a few:

• OTC birth control pills & EOs on reproductive rights
• Huge gains in renewable power
• Loosening cannabis restrictions
• Student loan forgiveness
• Big support for domestic semiconductor production
• Boosting cancer research
• Huge support for unions and unionization (this is a really big deal!)
• Transgender support & visibility (e.g. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/03/29/a-proclamation-on-transgender-day-of-visibility-2024/)

Take any one of these things and imagine the opposite. That’s what will happen under any republican administration.

You may not like Biden and I totally get that, but NEVER EVER think your vote doesn’t matter just because you don’t get exactly what you want. We got a decent amount and we CAN get more. Get Biden elected and then (a) be politically active for local and state elections; (b) protest: it works.

I’ll tell you what. You can sit online all day complaining about the average age of our elected “representatives” or you you can mobilize to do something about it. Be politically active. Vote.

Or even run yourself or encourage others of an acceptable age to you to run.

The reason they are so fucking old is for the exact reason you’d expect: voter participation of those 65+ is about 3x of those 18-29.